SSB

This is cool ! Is there a particular formula (or catagory of racing) that you are building it to ?

As I remember it there was a fundamental argument between the diff and the ABS. Early development tests revealed that the Peugeot ABS would not stop on ice AT ALL. I'm not sure that this phenonom was the reason for non-LSDs but it may have been the reason for the Torsen as all the '89's came with both. I've wondered what it would be like to have the torsen. As I understand it, the torsen puts the power to the outside wheel and locks up 100% when the wheel spins. The problem with that is again the turn into corners. The Torsen would power out understeering where the LSD powers out oversteering (more fun) . Looks pretty sharp. 200 hp Turbo V6 ? Did I read that right? wow. I'm happy to see it. Peugeots generally looked so unloved, it's great to see them well cared for.

[quote name='N9TE' First question is: why didn't you campaign again in an 88 or 89 turbo 505? Wouldn't such a car be even more competitive or had the car been reclassified? A N9TEA with ABS in your hands could crossed quite a few checkered flags I would guess.

Yup !

Peugeot has made bicycles since before they built cars so to me, it's natural. go to http://www.505turbo.com/ and click on the 12/03/06 regarding Victor Van Tress. That's me and that's my car, named Red.

I X-country Mountain bike. Bought a Schwinn 4-Banger HomeGrownn (read Yeti) back in December of '98. I ride twice a week in a very high technical type area (Rocky Peak, Cheseboro, Backbone). However, I have a road bike I keep in Miami, Florida. That's where I met the guy who owns Navigator Insurance and the sponsor of the Navigator Road Bike Racing Team and that's where I got the VIP passes for Long Beach.

That car appears to be equipped just like Red. i.e. manual windows & no sunroof. As Red was originally white before it was painted red for the V6 commercial, I don't know if it ever said GL-Edition on the side. Except the headlights are wrong on this car (Or maybe it's an earlier car with later model side mirrors). I was once told that Red was a Liberte but I've seen other and they're not the same. I will be at the Long Beach end of the Tour of California at Navigators hospitality area (and the dinner after). Will you?

Sorry about the late response (big turbo, you know). Most of my knowledge comes with a disclaimer of being at least 20 year old info. However, that being said, when building a turbine wheel that needs to spin 225,000 rpm, the material needs to be quit hard. Ceramic has been used for years in some turbos (Buick GXN surprisingly). The VAT (varible area turbine) used on the TDI VW and the Turbo Gas VW while having different mapping charature would only have a material differance in the turbine housing at most if any differance. But as in both applications are cast iron turbine housing, I would be surprized if they used a lighter material on the diesel. So while they would not be interchangable, I doubt heat is why.

I have some background with VNT's from back in the mid to late 70's. The vanes on ours were regulated through a rather simple pressure sensing of the intake manifold. We (TurboTech, North Hollywood, CA. R.I.P.) sent a prototype to Cummins Diesel and the test result were about 80% effieient (compared with less that 20% with a standard turbo). The problem was the clearances had to be extreemly close (much closer than a normal turbo when it comes to housing to impeller) to acually act as a nozzel (think garden hose) . Because of the heat issues, close tollerances were difficult to maintain. So, today the VW TDI, the Peugeot powered Mini, Mazda Speed's and all "twin Scroll" compressors are nowhere near the effieiency they could be as the clearances are not very close. The big increases in power today are from pressure regulation and timing. I submit that if an N9TEA had a modern high pressure direct injection system, one would have trouble keeping rear tires on the car. As far as the turbos handling the heat, I doubt it would be a problem as the materials used are the same from Diesel (1000 deg.f) to gas (1600 deg.f) (inconel & berillium (sp?))

Volvo's have some fun cars. There's a C30 2 door hatch back comming out and the VW IROC I like but I just get past the FWD part. However, another rcing story comes to mind. A friend of mine drove a 740 Turbo wagon that was racing in the "Firehawk" series a decade ago or so. As these cars are somewhat race prepared (i.e. springs / shocks / brake pads / exhaust /and such) the car was surprisingly fast. EXCEPT for the unusually small fuel tank. I forget what it was but it had to come in for fuel about every half hour (Corvette's would go over an hour). But I digress, There are some AWD cars that "think" like rear driver cars (Acura) but price comes into the issue again. Used T5 wagon ??? I really like those. Drove one once when they were new. Very powerfull.

All in good time grasshopper. To allow Red to be a competion car again requires Red to be replaced as my only car. THAT is a tall order. Obviously, front drive cars are out and that by itself reduces the field of choices dramatically. Got to be a manual trans and get at least 20-25 mpg. Coupled with the fact that I'll not spend more than $25k on a new car means there is nothing that will replace Red. If I lower my sights somewhat and consider used cars, the BMW 330c works but the 325 wagon would be more useful. But really, after driving Red for 20 years, what can replace it? Anybody got a perfect '89 or newer 505 Turbo w/5 speed? I rather have that than anything.

OK, but wait ............. There's more. This LA Times sports writter, Shav Glick, was rather fond of the Mulholland Gang as he called it. Personally I got 3 articles written by his. This one involve Red and therefore of more interest to this group. It is a little hard to read and I think some of the facts are incorrect, but what the heck. ...and so it goes.

Oh boy, here we go. This could be it's own thread as is is a period of time that (for my group) started in 1970 and still goes on today. Not that we are activly racing mulholland now but most all of us went from Mulholland to racing, in one form or another. As there is no way I'll be able to relay all of this in one sitting (or a dozen) 2 questions stand out. 1) For those who don't know Mulholland Drive is a road that runs the ridge of the Santa Monica Mountains which runs north & south of Los Angeles. It is named after William Mulholland (a Dutch inigrant in the late 1800's) who single handly built the aquaduct water system that allowed Los Angeles to grow to the size it is today. 2) Everything I've ever owned has gone accross Mulholland. Once I started racing on the track I quickly realized that going 10/10's on Mulholland was not very smart. (On the racetrack all the trafic is going the same direction, for the same reason). However, one thing that you'll appreciate is that a Mulholland car is a "point & squirt" type affair. So a fast Mulholland car is not necessarly a fast track car. But Red doesn't appear to know that. Going fast on Mulholland is more about driver ability than the car. I used to run down some very fast cars with a '74 Chevy Wagon for example. Because I lived on Mulholland I knew it in the dark (and we did actually turn off our headlights and race just for the fun of it) I warned you this could be long. And yes I will write the book (someday) but for some background on Mulholland racing (and I hate to have people go & buy the book I'm about to reffer to as it is badly written and it skipped my group (CRE) altogether) www.autobooks.com "The Mulholland Experience" by Dan Magee. So did the 505 Turbo every "play" on Mullholland Dr.?

If it's built in Japan then it's a Mitisubshi rebadged as a Peugeot/Citroen. Not really unusual however as the Saab SUV is a Subaru Forester, the early Honda Pilot is a Isuzu, and as I recall the original Jeep Cherokee was actually a Renault built under license by Chrysler (as was the AMC Alliance/Renault). I always thought if I had a Cherokee I'd rebadge it as a Renault and so maybe now rebadge the Outlander as a Peugeot !?

What happened was that when PMA announced the contingency program to race the Turbo's, Bill Pavone said "...and we'll give you one of the ASC convertable cars for parts". I didn't have facility to take one and I never saw one but from what I heard, from a guy named Tide Ebding (google that?), was it was a running chassis w/ no bolt on sheet metal. It must have been fairly complete however as I did get a pair of front seats from one (unusual in that they fold forward to allow access to the rear seat). He has done some vintage racing in the recent past, maybe he could be found and asked what happened to the car. Additionally, Dr. Gary Brown and Walt Bower, from Oklahoma City, got one too, as I recall. 2VT

Hooray for insanity. If Peugeot hadn't been thinking outside the box, we wouldn't be here either. You know there was allot of development on the Datsun 510 in this regard (also a strut front with IRS rear.). I wonder if the BRE stuff might be useful. As most of the guys I started racing were on Mulholland drive with their 510's I might be able to find info on them. Just a thought.

I ran across an article in Grass Roots Motorsports (April 2004) where a question was posed regarding changing wheel off-sets. I'll just highlight the disadvantages, to wit: "The main disadvantage of using wheel with less positive offset than originals is that this increases the leverage the wheels & tires have on the suspension in every direction. This effectively reduces the suspernsion's spring rates, shifts the wheel bearing loads, and increases the vehicles to wheel inbalance while increasing the probability of tramlining and more rapid tire wear." "Another disadvantage is that the increase in leverage generated by significantly different than stock wheel offsets (and increased scrub radii) will place extra load against rubber suspension bushings." As the strut is the front strut is the limiter in wheel width, less offet is the only direction you could go, with the resulting complication as mentioned above. All of the above may be expected by your friend so like you say, "it's an experiment". Personally, I made two 1/4" spacers so I could fit the 225/60-15's in there and now it power oversteers much more than before. It is fun though and it keeps the traffic away from me when I'm driving in the rain.

Hay there cold & rainy - hot & muggy here (I'll be home next week where I'll be hot & dry) It' just that somewhere in my memory bank are rods with oil squirters (to cool the bottom side of the piston) and rods without (or was it just plugging the holes?). As far as power was concerned, one didn't want the pistons to have to move the oil out of the way. As far as longevity was concerned keeping the pistons cool was a good thing. The most typical piston failure was the ring land area (where the rings ride) where they would widen out. Compression would be ok but leak down would not be ok. For racing, I just kept replacing the pistons every year (that was over 100,000 miles ago).

Thanks, I'm very glad to have found ya'll (have to talk like that 'cause I'm in Miami right now)(actually, I should talk Cuban, I guess). It appears some have more experience at modifying the "T" type than I do. My deal was getting 10/10ths out of what it already was. One thing that I've found is that often there was not a component failure as there was a connector failure. My air flow meter, throttle position switch, closed throttle switch and temp sender all malfunctioned because of the connection (not the part). The a/c computer got wet from the windshield seal leaking (doesn't rain much in Los Angeles and I rarely use water to clean the car with - California Duster & Pledge furniture polish with a terry cloth towel - doesn't work as well on clear coated paint jobs). The issues such as #3 rod bearing, piston problems and cracked heads I'd suspect relate to running more boost than it was designed for. (I wonder if the N9TEA has different pistons or possibly rods than the N9TE). While I was racing Red I found that even though an overboosted car was allot more powerful, it was only for a short time before that heat build-up would sent the ignition timing back to yesterday. I'm going to try to get Jim Kelly, former Service Director @ PMA, to join in the forum. He's pretty much analog though. He now lives in Kingman, Arizona.

You'll like this one. After the '87 Runoff Championship (actually on the podeum) I asked the defending National Champion if he now knew how to spell Peugeot now. He said "Ya, F.A.S.T Did you ever race Lake Fallon (Phallen?). They had Ice Racing Enduros. I always thought that would have to be allot of fun. (Except when the track wore through) Different wheels and tyres would be a real prize. 16's & 17's ? Must have allot of off set, huh?. We were allowed to race 225/60-15's but they wouldn't clear the front struts therefore we ran 215/60-15's. After Red was done racing I made two 1/4" spacers and now have the 225/60-15's. The problem is power oversteer. Before the spacers the car just flat hooked out of the corners. Now it finishes the turns in a rather dramatic power slide. I wonder what the offset change your planning is going to produce? Like you I look forward to BMW/Porsche/Alfa Romao/anybody else's owners Club track days. Even if I get beat, there will be allot schrapnel behind me.

Oh this is fun. I have e-mailed a writer from Autoweek some time ago, named Cory Farley, after he wrote an article about the fact that the best car he ever owned was a former Showroom Stocker. I told him about Red and how it not only survives, it thrives. He didn't jump up and say "Hay lets do an article" but who knows, maybe someday. I'm betting when Rabin autocrosses his 505, people just don't understand. Give'em hell Rabin. I wonder what a back to back comparision of the Torsen Diff to the cone style would reveal. The cone style allows the car to rotate in the corner (good thing for auto-X) while the torsen would put all the power down. Each has an advantage and a disadvantage. Johnny posts a question: Is that car in the commercial Victors?. That's Red!! The way it happened was PMA prepared an XN6 to look like the V6 (STX? I forget) but when it hit the ramp it landed squarely in the center of the bed and distroyed the set. The Stunt driver (Buzz Dyer, I think) asked for something more powerful and PMA said "well the ad is for the V6 so let's use the V6". But when that car hit the ramp it flew by the camera and nose-down 45 degree angle. Not very pretty. The driver asks PMA "what else have you got?? PMA says "ah........we got turbos?. When the driver hit the ramp this time, Red flew over the bed alright, but it flew by allot higher than they anticipated and nearly went out the back of the airplane hanger that they were shooting in. Thus, when I bought Red, it had 16 miles on it and about 35 feet of flight time. The car was bent at the A pillars and the C pillars, the oil pan was completely flattened and both the side mirrors were knocked off. Damages notwithstanding, all we (my partner Tom Hughes) did was to put the cage (AutoPower in San Diego) in it with the safety equipment and put the mirrors back on. In otherwords, our first race at Riverside, it still had a flattened oil pan (hard to hurt that oil pump, however) and the tub has never straightened. I notice it squeeks and rattles more than other 505's but hay. Ask August, it's still pretty good.

Thank everyone for receiving me. I am so very pleased to finally after all these years to find people who have found out what a truly great car these 505 Turbo's are. I only bought it to race in Showroom Stock yet 20 years later, I enjoy it all the more. Red won in 1987 & 1988 SSB National Championships ( which means it was driven flat out for 2.5 hours once a month for nearly three years for a total of 44 SCCA National Races) including $80,000 in prise money. So 100,000 miles after its last race, I can state absolutely that I have never added a quart of oil to it and all the parts that have broken on it I can hold in the palm of one hand (for those who might remember, I even got 6 years for the "Pink" battery). All this after being used in the commercial and flung threw the air, into a window and over a bed (BTW the car at the end of the commercial bouncing is not mine). However, while it was a race car it was maintained to 100%. We were given a dealer number by PMA and could buy parts at dealer cost. As mine was raced at stock (9.5 lbs) boost level I imagine I got better piston life than most (the ring land area would widen) and bought pistons for it once (it was hard to get 4 that weighed the same). Yet Reds future is not retirement, it is going to be back on the race track in an Improved Touring configuration within the next two years. Have to cut it short, Red & I have to battle the 405 freeway tomorrow and drive to San Diego.